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OT Luthiery Rental DVD’s
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Author:  Bruce Dickey [ Fri Jun 09, 2006 10:02 am ]
Post subject: 
On Topic,

These guys listen. Technical Video Rental. I rented Robbie Obrien's Classical Video. When I sent it back, I recommended they also offer his steel string video. They did. Worked well.

They have greatly expanded their offerings in just the last thirty days. They now have twenty Luthier Videos, Finocchio, Mayes, O'Brien, Erlewine, etc.

Link to Technical Video Luthier DVD's, 9.95 for a week, very reasonable I thought, includes postage coming and going.



Anyone else rent from these folks? I'd like to recommend a longer rental time.
Author:  Pwoolson [ Fri Jun 09, 2006 10:09 am ]
Post subject: 
So guys, (O'brian, Mayes) do you get royalties from each rental? Hope so.
Author:  buddy lee [ Fri Jun 09, 2006 10:31 am ]
Post subject: 
Paul, that's a good question... the authors certainly deserve to profit from this. I've rented Robbie O'Brien's Guitar Finishing video and have an Erlewine dvd on the way that should arrive on Monday. I think this outfit gives very good service and I have a few in mind to recommend to them as well (the John Mayes Advanced Voicing set is one )
Author:  tl507362 [ Fri Jun 09, 2006 10:52 am ]
Post subject: 
Paul,
Sad to say, they get no royalties from this. Here is a link that describes how they get away with not having to pay royalties. Basically, it is the same as the movie rental business. Once they buy the movie, they can rent it as much as they want, since they did pay for the movie. I didn't know this was the case, but looks ligit to me.
Tracy
Author:  Wayne Clark [ Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:05 am ]
Post subject: 
That's a raw deal.

I have some of Robbie's and John's videos. They are a great resource for someone who wants to learn on his own. I would encourage everyone who rents one of these dvd's to support these guys. I'm sure neither one these guys is getting rich from making them.
Author:  Michael Shaw [ Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:07 am ]
Post subject: 
I posted about this site last month. Their service is good.   But I think the price's are little high for a weeks rental.
Author:  Bruce Dickey [ Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:46 am ]
Post subject: 
Actually, every time a video rents, it's just that much more exposure for each of the authors. Anyone who really likes the work, will probably buy as a result. I got a brief look at Robbie's CD, but no where close to digesting it or the contents. So you guessed it, I gotta either buy it or rent it again. And.... now I truly know, it's worth it.

I'm sure there will be some math to it. Maybe one sale for every ten times it rents. These guys don't sell DVD's so they'll be going to StewMac, LMII or directly to Mayes or Robbie to get a copy. I just don't hear the authors complaining at all????
Author:  Pwoolson [ Fri Jun 09, 2006 1:59 pm ]
Post subject: 
I'm sorry, but it seams wrong to me. I'm sure we could go way deep into copyright talks (which is not my intent). But the way I look at it, if it prevents a sale, it's an infringment. Yes, Bruce, you make a point about testing it first to see if it's worth buying. But that's the excuse many people use when pirating music on the internet.
This on the coat tails of the BMI discussion. So you can't play someone else's music in public but you can rent their work to other people and make money off it? Just wrong.Pwoolson38877.9587962963
Author:  Michael Shaw [ Fri Jun 09, 2006 2:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
They are not doing anything that is different then NetFlixs or blockbuster or you local vido rental store. This has been going on for years. I'm sure you never had a problem with renting lets say a Robert De Niro movie or some other actors movie. So what is the problem renting a video of John Mayes or any of the other's? If john not making royalties off this nethier is Di Niro. So whats the difference. Is it because some of you know John but don't know any of the actors in your favorite movies? And if you don't know somebody it might not bother you as much.    
Author:  Bruce Dickey [ Fri Jun 09, 2006 2:43 pm ]
Post subject: 
You can be offended for these guys if you want Paul. I haven't heard them complain at all. John Mayes, Robbie O'brien, what are your thoughts?

I have to be conservative with lutherie purchases of necessity. I paid ten bucks to see Robbie's work and was very impressed. IF I had to pay forty to sample it, I may not have until you loaned me your copy...

And this is off topic, but I loved the video series Burns did of the Civil War. It has the song Ashokan's Farewell on it and Burns did a super job with this series.

It's available at my public library for free. I checked out each copy they'd let me have and watched in earnest at the Civil War work of Mr. Burns. I was thoroughly enriched. A copy of these videos is over $300.

Author:  John Mayes [ Fri Jun 09, 2006 5:05 pm ]
Post subject: 
My thoughts? I don't like it and I suspect Robbie does not either. This
topic came up a month or so back and one guy, even here on the forum,
mentioned burning copies of the DVD's, and I've had 5 count them FIVE
guys e-mail me saying they rented my videos from them, liked them,
burned copies, and then came to me, and were asking for advice. If I
would have known that this place bought my DVD's to do this with I
would have never sold them to them. It does seem wrong to me because,
perhaps, I'm the one who is not reaping any benefit from these guys
stealing my work. And I think using the Blockbuster analogy only works
on the surface. Guys like Deniro, ect get paid BIG BUCKS (more for one
film than I could make in 5 lifetimes.) for their roles in the movies. That's
not to say they don't deserve it, because society says they do (which is
another topic in itself) As well as they do not own the movie or the rights
to the film. In this case I do own my films, I did all the work, and
someone else is making money off me in a sense. Mind you I'm not
saying it is illegal, because I know the Fair Use policy says that it is indeed
perfectly legal what they are doing, that once they purchase it, they, in a
sense, own the rights to it...at least the rights to rent it over and over
again. This all is, of course, coming from a VERY biased source on this
subject so take it for what it is worth. But my biggest gripe is that they
are illegally being copied/stolen and my hard work and LOTS of time and
many years of experience goes unrewarded monetarily.
Author:  Bruce Dickey [ Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:26 am ]
Post subject: 
Hmmm, John, I had no idea you felt this way about it. I saw part of the other thread, that's where I picked up the link.

I'm not so sure Robbie feels this way about it. Maybe he'll chime in.

Why don't you contact these folks and offer to buy your DVD's back? Sorry about this, I won't mention it again, you can be sure.

PS I think there are a lot of honest people out there who don't burn Pirated DVD's.
Author:  John Mayes [ Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:45 am ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=Bruce Dickey] Hmmm, John, I had no idea you felt this way
about it. I saw part of the other thread, that's where I picked up the link.

I'm not so sure Robbie feels this way about it. Maybe he'll chime in.

Why don't you contact these folks and offer to buy your DVD's back?
Sorry about this, I won't mention it again, you can be sure.

PS I think there are a lot of honest people out there who don't burn
Pirated DVD's.[/QUOTE]

No need to apologize about bringing it up. This company, from
everything I can see, provides a valuable service and they are totally on
the up and up.

I'm not going to speak for Robbie, although I do know his thoughts on
the subject. If he wants to chime in then cool.

Oh and I totally agree there are lots of honest people who would not burn
illegal copies, problem is (to me, and again I'm more sensitive here
because I have a monetary interest) if, only, 10% of the people who rent it
burn copies of them then, depending on how much they rent it, that is
some serious money out of my/the other peoples pockets. Just take
the five people who contacted me and told me they burned the DVD's
(two of the five I know participate on this forum on a regular basis) if
these 5 people would have bought my dvd's it would have meant upwards
of $1,000 in my pocket. And if you flash back to the "do luthiers make
any money" topic you'll know I don't make much money and this would be
equal to about 5% of my annual income that I clear. So yeah it is a big
deal to me.

Now, of course, this is not just a problem with me or whatever, this
problem hurts lots of people, and artists out there. Independent
musicians (whom I deal a lot with) feel the same way that these illegal
copies, and such are like taking money out of their pocket. And as
mentioned before this problem hurts the little guys vastly more than
some ginormous company like sony or something, although I'm sure it
put s a dent in their, much deeper, pockets. So really this is a big
problem, it is just now really hitting home to me because of the
implications from this situation.

Now if everyone who rented my DVD's there was 100% honest and no
copies were burned at all, then I would have ZERO problem with my DVD's
being there, in fact just the opposite. I'm thrilled so many people have
bought and enjoyed my DVD's, and I am glad to help further, even in a
little way, the art that we all pursue, I just hate to see my hard work, time,
and experience stolen. But I suppose it's best to look at it optimistically
and assume that every person who rents the video is honest, and rejoice
in the knowledge that I'm helping increase others knowledge.John Mayes38878.4200462963
Author:  Robbie O'Brien [ Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:52 am ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=Bruce Dickey] Actually, every time a video rents, it's just that much more exposure for each of the authors. Anyone who really likes the work, will probably buy as a result. I got a brief look at Robbie's CD, but no where close to digesting it or the contents. So you guessed it, I gotta either buy it or rent it again. And.... now I truly know, it's worth it.

I'm sure there will be some math to it. Maybe one sale for every ten times it rents. These guys don't sell DVD's so they'll be going to StewMac, LMII or directly to Mayes or Robbie to get a copy. I just don't hear the authors complaining at all????[/QUOTE]

Bruce,
I am glad that you liked the contents of my classical DVD and that you are finding it useful.
When I started my instructional dvd's they were meant as an aid for my guitar building students. Along the way LMI picked up the dvd's and began offering them in their kits and for sale in their catalogue and off their website. My intent was to teach through an audio video format how to build and finish a guitar.I wanted others to have the opportunity and satisfaction of building their own guitar. If I could make a mortgage payment or two along the way then I would be happy.

I actually contacted the technical video rental folks a few months back after seeing their luthier section and that my DVD's were not being offered. They immediateley purchased a copy of one of them and started offering it for rent. Thanks to the fine folks on this forum and others they now offer all three of my DVD's. This brings me immense professional satisfaction and I am honored that others find the content I have provided useful. Does this take away from sales or bring me more sales of my DVD's? I really have no way of knowing. I do know that I am in no way getting rich off this project and have no plans of retireing anytime soon.

Kent Everett once told me something about teaching guitar building. He said that providing information is kind of like a rising tide. It allows all of us to swim and this can only benefit guitar building and builders everywhere including myself. In other words, the more information out there and available the better for all of us.
Thank you to all those who have purchased (or rented) my DVD's. I am truly honored that you find merit in my work.
Happy Building and Finishing everyone!      
Author:  Bruce Dickey [ Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:01 am ]
Post subject: 
Thanks Robbie, I was just over reading through the archives and found the same thoughts over there. Salute.

I enjoy sharing the joys of guitarmaking with those I meet too. Teaching was a rewarding profession to me for a number of years. When you have a student that's like a sponge and really applies what you teach it's incredible chemistry.

Amati must have been very proud of his Stradivari.
Author:  John Mayes [ Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:07 am ]
Post subject: 
well don't I look like the jackass now......
Author:  LanceK [ Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:23 am ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=John Mayes] well don't I look like the jackass now......[/QUOTE]

Not in my mind!
I think that your COMPLETELY entitled to your opinion on how you view the sharing of YOUR product.
Personally I lean toward your POV John, and would feel slighted if what has happened to you happened to me. I also admire Robbie’s view point. Just different angles that’s all.
Author:  Terry Stowell [ Sat Jun 10, 2006 4:59 am ]
Post subject: 
I think both opinions have great merit. What doesn't is when the statement "everyone else is doing it" justifies any opinion. That's just plain short sighted
Author:  Mike Dotson [ Sat Jun 10, 2006 5:06 am ]
Post subject: 
What Lance said. There's room for personal opinion
on either side of this. I once seriously considered
doing a book on resonator (both wood and metal)
construction and spent some time talking to Jason
Lollar and also reading Bill Cumpiano's lengthy
essay on his website about his trials in getting the
C&N book done. That was enough to scare me
off.   :D
I think anybody making an instructional vid needs to
know that rentals are a fact of life and part of doing
business. Just like piracy is, though obviously not
legal. I think it would also be fair to have a
'commercial version' price that professional rental
shops could pay that would help compensate the
maker, but then that drags into commercial car
rental, tools, etc. Big ball of wax there.

At any rate, cheers to both of you (John and Robbie)
for your efforts.Mike Dotson38878.5947916667
Author:  MSpencer [ Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:48 am ]
Post subject: 
I agree with John on this and will not rent a DVD, I have purchased a few and will continue to do that directly from the source or maker. I feel that this Forum is honest and if I am considering a DVD on some process or subject, I will simply post a request for input from the guys here and if they say it is good or awesome or not so good, then I will buy it or make my decision accordingly. I have Robbie's finishing DVD that I purchased at auction here on the OLF and it is awesome.

Mike
White Oak, Texas
Author:  Brock Poling [ Sat Jun 10, 2006 7:23 am ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=John Mayes] My thoughts? I don't like it and I suspect Robbie does not either. This
topic came up a month or so back and one guy, even here on the forum,
mentioned burning copies of the DVD's, and I've had 5 count them FIVE
guys e-mail me saying they rented my videos from them, liked them,
burned copies, and then came to me, and were asking for advice. If I
would have known that this place bought my DVD's to do this with I
would have never sold them to them. It does seem wrong to me because,
perhaps, I'm the one who is not reaping any benefit from these guys
stealing my work. And I think using the Blockbuster analogy only works
on the surface. Guys like Deniro, ect get paid BIG BUCKS (more for one
film than I could make in 5 lifetimes.) for their roles in the movies. That's
not to say they don't deserve it, because society says they do (which is
another topic in itself) As well as they do not own the movie or the rights
to the film. In this case I do own my films, I did all the work, and
someone else is making money off me in a sense. Mind you I'm not
saying it is illegal, because I know the Fair Use policy says that it is indeed
perfectly legal what they are doing, that once they purchase it, they, in a
sense, own the rights to it...at least the rights to rent it over and over
again. This all is, of course, coming from a VERY biased source on this
subject so take it for what it is worth. But my biggest gripe is that they
are illegally being copied/stolen and my hard work and LOTS of time and
many years of experience goes unrewarded monetarily. [/QUOTE]


Wow... where to start with this thread.

When you rent a "real" video from blockbuster etc. there is a statment at the beginning of every movie that this is for private home use and may not be viewed..... yada yada yada. It would seem to me that all of you guys doing self publishing deals could put such a "terms of use" clause on all of your videos as well to stop this practice. At least, that way if they continued it would be in violation of your notice and you might be able to claim some kind of damage from their actions.

Second, guys like DeNiro do make money from video rentals, that is part of their contract. They make money on all fronts, no reason you shouldn't either.

I think the best scenario would be for the self publishers to sell a "special" copy of the videos to these houses at a much higher price to "license" their commercial use of the product.

I don't care how you spin fair use, if they are charging a fee it is commercial use - period. I would be getting a lawyer to look into it. Find a friend of the family if you don't want to pay for it.

:-)
Author:  MSpencer [ Sat Jun 10, 2006 7:59 am ]
Post subject: 
Brock, very good points,

Once upon a time in a land far far away I owned a shopping center and inherited a Video Store that was a tenant. These companies that obtain the rights and distribution on these films entering this market do in fact pay a substantial royalty fee of which I am sure the Deniros get a portion of. Maybe not enough but something. I am under the understanding that video/DVD royalties are calculated and negotiated based upon the movie itself which I am sure takes success, distribution etc. etc. into account. So the blockbuster movies once they go to he Video/DVD markets have weighted formulas that do provide compensation back down the line.

Not the same thing here, these are industry training films if you will produced and provided on a small scale and a totally different to me at least. Deniro is acting, and his are for entertainment to all, these guys are providing instruction and education to a very small segment of the population that would be interested in its content. John, Robbie and others have a tiny tiny potential market, make this available on rental when they paid $40.00 to buy or whatever and then the renters burn an illegal CD and we may find ourselves with less and less guys of talent like these gentlemen, willing to invest the time and monies into sharing their expertise on a given subject if it is a loosing proposition. Sooner or later the rubber meets the road and its OK and honorable to feel honored that folks enjoy your DVD who got it for free or a rental fee, but these guys are trying to etch out a living,

soooooooooooooooooo I will buy, hope that all my friends here on the OLF will buy direct from these guys or industry suppliers that make them available vs. looking for the FREE or cheaper alternatives.

There are alot of hobbies that just simply cost alot of money to get into, this is one of those. I am not a rich man and like to save a buck where I can, but not at the expense of others and especially those whom I depend heavily on to get me out of a jam when I run into build problems and who willingly support all of us and everything we do on the OLF.

My soap box on this, sorry for the length

Mike
White Oak, Texas

Mike
White Oak, Texas
Author:  Pwoolson [ Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:24 am ]
Post subject: 
Brock, I'm glad you brought that up. Yes, everybody involved in the making of the film (based on their original contract) makes money every time that film is rented. (if it's done legally). Often times the writer sells outright and doesn't get the royalities on it which can come back and bite them when the film does better on video than it did in theaters.
Libraries are a different story because they don't make money off the "rental". If they charge money for a rental then they are required to pay royalities.
John and Robbie, it might be worth a phone call to an attorney to see if a letter to this company might do some good.
You guys are entitled to be making money off your hard work, especially if someone else is doing so.
Author:  Michael Shaw [ Sat Jun 10, 2006 9:23 am ]
Post subject: 
I agree these guy's should make something off these dvd's. I think the problem is these guy's didn't understand how the industriy work's. They just put out the dvd's without understanding the legal parts of the dvd business including rentals. They have lawyers that specialize in this. I would recomend that they look into this for any future dvd's they have planned to protect their rights and profits.
Author:  James Orr [ Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:11 am ]
Post subject: 
I'm apalled that someone would burn one of John's dvd's, then tell him so
AND ask for him advice. That's absolutely obscene.

At church we can only show certain DVD's. We have a license (kind of like
a CCLI for movies I think), and if they're not on it, we can't watch it. It
doesn't have anything to do with the number of people seeing it, but the
fact that we're an organization. John, would you like me to look into the
details?
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